I asked Bob Blincoe if I was being fair to Calvin, and we ended up discussing the “Two Structures” view of missions. I hope you can take a few moments to listen/watch.
Unedited Transcript
[I will get better at these - Zoom didn’t separate our audio into two speakers this time around.]
[00:00:00] welcome Substack readers. I'm trying out something new here. Gonna do a little recorded video. I have Bob Blincoe on the call with me here, Bob. Welcome. I'm glad you're here. Thank you so much, Ted. My last couple of posts, I dealt with some issues in Calvinism and I quoted Calvin. I'm gonna read that quote here in just a minute.
And as I watched some of the comments go back and forth and I actually got a fair number of personal emails. One of the comments was that I wasn't really being fair to Calvin by using this particular quotation. And Bob is one of the. I'd say one of my heroes that is a Calvinist through and through Presbyterian as well, and has written extensively on this topic.
I can remember when I did my PhD research reading your dissertation, Bob, and it was very helpful to me. So let me start by reading the quote from Calvin and [00:01:00] then I wanna just get your reaction to it. The Lord created the apostles that they might spread the gospel throughout the whole world, and he did not assign to each of them certain limits or parishes, but would have them wherever they went to discharge the office of ambassadors among all nations and languages.
In this respect, there is a difference between them and pastors who are in a manner tied to their particular churches. The pastor has not a commission to preach the gospel over the whole world, but to take care of the church that has been committed to his charge. And that's from John Calvin's commentary on Corinthians Volume one commentary on one Corinthians 1228.
So let me just start with this question. Bob does am I. In an inappropriate way when I that as evidence that [00:02:00] perhaps he didn't believe the Great Commission was for our day. I don't think you're quoting it in inappropriate way and let the Calvinists speak for themselves. They commended Calvin for what they thought was the biblical approach to understanding the.
Difference between the first century apostolic age when the Great Commission was given to the first apostles, and then what they call the church age, which has developed in the later times, and which would validate a pastor centered approach, a and a proclamation centered approach to understanding of how Christianity and the great Commission should be advanced.
Sounds a little bit dispensationalist, but that's not really fair. I know that's not really dispensationalism, but it would seem to me that what Calvin is saying here is that [00:03:00] pastors are not missionaries and therefore we should not, impute on pastors. The pastors, the missionary task.
That seems fair, does it not? Yes. How about all systematics, including Calvin's institutes and the commentaries must be assessed and examined. In terms of the scriptures, biblical theology must un undergird and challenge our systematics. And this is where I and my fellow Calvinists sometimes get to a place where I don't know where to.
Continue because as soon as you or I say something about the biblical basis, ongoing basis for the great commission and the two structures of God's redemptive mission, wow. The reaction is not so much let's go back to the Bible, but did you just dis the founder of our Reformation and reform tradition?
[00:04:00] And so I don't know where to proceed from there. So let's unpack what you just said there a little bit. First of all, some of our listeners may not have heard of this idea of the two structures of mission. Could you just give a brief description of what you mean by that? Oh, I wish that Calvin could have listened more carefully to the Catholics or the Jews instead of instead of, as it turned out, because the Catholics, they are.
More able to capture the biblical basis for the two structures that the Jews expressed in the first century. The synagogue, meaning that the people of God gathered for worship. But the second structure that the Jews were quite comfortable with in the first century was the Hevrah, H-E-V-R-A-H. And only by talking to the Jews have I been able to become.
Convinced that these two structures form a biblical [00:05:00] basis for what was really there in the first century. Paul and Barnabas Jews were already quite familiar with these structures and they formed a small mobile missionary band, so did Priscilla and Aquila fellow Jews, and they iterated their proclamation ministry to the to the peoples of Asia Minor and Europe.
Following a structure that was there already. The Catholics validated these two structures in their monastic movement, and of course in the in the local churches. However, coming to see Luther and Calvin, they wanted the entirety of the Christian expression to happen in the local church.
And you know what Ted? And you can see that happen in a first generation congregation, everybody is a believer. Everybody is zealous for the Lord. Everybody signs their name for the charter. But when you baptize children, three or four generations, you're gonna become as potentially nominal. [00:06:00] As and worldly as the Catholics.
And that is what happened in the time of Tdo Beza and the following years in Jeanne and Wittenberg. So with the second structure dissolved, the monastic structure un unavailable to the Calvinists, they entered a missionary, a Mission Ice Age, which endured for 275 years. The great catastrophe of the reformed era was not the preaching of the gospel to the conversion of the Catholics and for the rejoicing of those who were secure in their faith in Europe.
But the rendering of the two structured basis, which I'm arguing is a biblical, is there in the Bible and that lasted until William Carey re-proposed the second structure. That brought us to the beginning at last of a Protestant mission era in the beginning of the 18 hundreds. And he [00:07:00] was a particular Baptist.
That means he was a Calvinistic Baptist. He was. I'd be curious. So when you look at the scriptures, I think it's pretty clear, pretty obvious to see the structure of the local church. It's laid out in a very almost systematic way you could say. What about the second structure that you're referring to?
So the word hevrah is not mentioned in the New Testament. I concede the points, but by talking to the Jews professors of first century, they say what do you think? The Pharisees were, they were a hevrah. The Essenes were a hevrah, the San, the the Jesus Christ. 12. A wandering band of men under a rabbi.
These are assumed by the ca, by the Jews to be hevrah and so it's hidden in plain sight. It was so clear as some things are in history that they didn't talk about it so much. Yes, synagogue 56 times in the New Testament, but the [00:08:00] Hevrah is there in its nature. But we're going to have to concede that it's not there in the term.
So there is the reason it's argumentative. What about the spark that really started the Protestant reformation? What, what changed? Was there a shift in theology, a shift in philosophy? What broke the ice Age? You meaning 1792? Yes. Of course William Carey had his his critics sit down Mr.
Carey, when God is ready to reach the heath and they will do it your help and mine. So he was already swimming upstream against the idea of a second structure. But he, his homework written in that 92 page inquiry about the state of the world and the admiration that he had for the early adopters.
He mentions Wesley, he mentions Brainerd. He's got these people that are his early [00:09:00] adopters of what? Two structures. Now this brings us to Jonathan Edwards, our finest theologian that the United, that America has ever produced. And a convinced two structures guy. 'cause when he admired David Brainerd's desire to go to the Indians.
Edwards knew there was no structure to take him there, though he was an ordained Calvinist man. So Brainerd joined the society for the propagation of the gospel, the Scottish Society for the propagation of the Gospel, which funded him and held him accountable. And Jonathan Edwards was all in and supported Brainerd through the society for the propagation of the gospel.
So I would. Point out to my reformed friends that we have a champion who arrived on the scene prior to William Carey and supported the two structures system. That was Jonathan Edwards himself. [00:10:00] Interesting. I think oftentimes when some, new paradigm happens, we can attribute it to somebody like William Carey, but in reality, there were things happening not just with William Carey, but with others that were awakening them to this idea all at the same time.
One of the arguments that I've heard throughout the years regarding the Great Commission is it was given to the apostles, not to the church on an ongoing basis. And that's captured a little bit in that Calvin quote. Yes, I, that's a very interesting and very problematic to me. You've got the quote by Calvin as well on your web, on your recent Substack post of Isaiah 49, 6.
Yeah, it is too small a thing to restore the tribes of Jacob. Israel, I will make you as a light to the Gentiles that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth. And [00:11:00] Paul quotes that twice. The Pharisees were keenly interested in this great commission, but they felt that they had to restore the proper worship of God among the Jews first before they could reach out to the Gentiles.
You can't read the Bible and get to the. The kind of argument that you just expressed on behalf of my reform friends. It's just not there. You can't read Psalm 117 verses one and two, the shortest chapter of the whole Bible, which is not read as a devotional. It's read to be sent to the nations.
Praise the Lord, all eat peoples. Magnify him all ye nations for great is his love towards us and his faithfulness endures forever. Praise the Lord. You read this and you say, oh my gosh, this is for the nations. Has nothing to do with hobbling the message by a first century idea of [00:12:00] the containment of the great commission in that time, but it is a longstanding reform tradition.
To say that kind of a thing. I just think this is a perfect example, Ted, of where we have to reassess everything in the system. I speak as the reform system by what's really there in the Bible. So one of the things I think that folks on the other side of this debate might say is para church is not in the, is not found in the scriptures.
That's why admission should be church centric. This is extra biblical. We should look at Galatians chapter two, this great text, the first 10 verses, which set up two administrations of the gospel. Of Christianity, Ted. After 14 years, I, Paul went up to Jerusalem to see whether the gospel that I preach was in vain.
Whether I was running in vain, I took SI took Titus with me. It's obvious later, he took Barnabas with him [00:13:00] and they won the day. Titus was not required to be circumcised, but certain spies from the Legacy church. Came in, in spite upon our freedom. This is the first time freedom is used in Galatians.
It's in two, but you've gotta consider what it means when you get to the other text later on in, in Galatians, theys spite upon our freedom. And I want you Galatians to know that not once did I. Deny the truth of the gospel so that I would stand firm for you. This is the truth of the gospel mentioned again in Galatians chapter two, verse 12, when Peter pulls away from the picnic table at the site of the circumcision party coming in from Jerusalem, from James.
So the entire discussion has to be re. We begun with the leaders of the church, Galatians chapter 2, 7, 8, and nine, and here at the end of their discussion, everyone [00:14:00] recognizes this tremendous word in the Greek. Everyone accepts two apostolic callings, one for Peter, where the legacy church already exists, and one for Paul, where the church will exist.
Because of his calling by the Holy Spirit to the Great Commission. And let us never say that the church calls anybody to Christ or to the Great Commission. It is always the Holy Spirit acts as a story of the Holy Spirit. So they shake hands they shake hands on this important point, Ted and all who might be listening two administrative structures of the gospel.
One Peters. Administrating the church where it already exists and that represents down to our day the pastoral ministry, which we admire, approve, and validate. But the second one, which they shook hands when, and sent on Paul and Barnabas on their way. [00:15:00] Validating the Great Commission apostolic calling, where it did not yet exist.
And of course, Paul Barnabas, also an apostle, were not part of the original 12. They were called by the Holy Spirit to continue the gospel ministry to the ends of the Earth. So this to me, is an enormously important visit of the. Paul explaining how we got into this problem of needing to de describe and recognize two administrative structures of the gospel.
So it is important to me to follow that up and say Paul did not want to be, he did not expect any longer to be to be governed by the legacy church. Yet, that's the crisis that happens in the very next verses 11, 12, 13, 14. When, as I'm saying, Peter pulled away from the table, here [00:16:00] comes the sheriffs over the hill with their.
Legacy church badges on Peter pulls away. Barnabas even was pulled away by their hypocrisy because they were not being true to, and here's the phrase for the second time, the truth of the gospel. Okay, so these two instances of the phrase, the truth of the gospel in Galatians chapter two, seem to me, Ted, not to refer to the gospel itself, which was secured in Galatians one, but to a definite.
E expectation of the gospel that when it comes to the Gentiles, when the gospel comes to the unreached peoples, it will come with the same saved by faith expectation that we have enjoyed for ourselves, and that Paul will be, and the apostles will be guiding that. Unreached that people who are now being reached by the gospel into the [00:17:00] security of their salvation on the same basis as Abraham and the rest of us were.
But in order to get to that place, we have to in order to get to the place of the missionaries taking the initiative. Governing themselves. We have to be biblical. And this is where I would like to hold a discussion with anyone who is so con, so convinced that we have a local church only kind of structure.
I see these conferences being put on. There was one recently called the Local Church, the Bride of Christ. Slap my forehead. There's many different aspects to understanding. The bride of Christ than simply the local church. But you can see by the very title that it's being it's, it is an assembly of people who are pretty sure that the local church has no other e and the, that no other kind of expression. The bride of Christ has no expression [00:18:00] except in its local church variety. Whoa. That is a theology which needs to re be reconsidered in light of the Bible. So I wonder if part of the reason why we're, where we're at with this movement, isn't it, in part because. Churches.
This is at least something I've heard from various leaders. Churches have been so sidelined in the great commission that now they're basically saying, no, we want to take back up our rightful role.
I think it's always been there. The curtain comes down on the Galatians two story without resolution, Ted, I think it's left there as the preacher's moment. What about you? Are you going to allow. The local church coming over the hill with this deputized sense that we are gonna now explain to the new Antioch, to the church in Antioch.
You've gotta start doing this and stop doing that. And we were really meant to govern or are we going to re, re [00:19:00] appreciate the Galatians to handshake the way that this thing was resolved in. Gala 2, 7, 8, and nine in Jerusalem. Everything depends upon this biblical understanding. And of course, this is where I hope we can get past systematics.
I want to help Pastor Lewis just a metaphor who's got his fists on his forehead and is there in his office saying if only the church, local church were organized right? We wouldn't need the parachurch organization. I wanna brighten his day. I wanna lift the furrow of his brow by ref, by discussing this at the Bible level, at the Galatians level, at the hevrah level, at the Jewish level of the first century.
I go to the Jewish library here where I live, and I said to the librarian, I'm interested in looking at the Jewish aspects of the gospel stories. And she says. What parts of the gospels do you think aren't Jewish? Mr. [00:20:00] Blinker? Okay we have not listened enough. To the Catholics, it was almost impossible in Calvin's day to say, I wanna listen to the Catholics or the Jews, but now is the time.
This is the place we cannot keep talking to ourselves and reinforcing a viewpoint which we have become sure of without listening to people that might throw light on the Bible. Bob, let me, I feel like it's important for us to also talk about when I look at reform missionaries huge contribution incredible amount of contribution.
And usually the line is reform people don't do missionary work because they believe in, predestination and this kind of stupid stuff. But when the fire caught on, it really caught on in a significant way. Yeah. What role did this str second structure you're talking about, play in that unfolding [00:21:00] story of how God has moved in the.
Good question. There's a reference book by Gerald Anderson biblical Dictionary of Christian Missions. Big book, 1400 notable missionary biographies in this, and of course, many of the mission biographies, and there are 1400 biographies are reformed people. But all of these reform people went to the field after William Carey proposed the second structure.
They went with an agency I. They found their way to be God's missionaries by joining the second agencies of Europe, the United States. And it created the great missionary age of the 19th century. Now, Ted, there were some reformed people in leadership who were hesitant to approve the second agencies that they would say it is better.[00:22:00]
Now, we don't send missionaries if that, if by sending missionaries, the only way to do that is to, is for the church to give up its governance of the missionaries. So they would rather have the continuing ice age. Some of those, but the ones that went out, I, this is my work, the timelines that I've written to, to find out, to count the 1400 missionaries to see who went out and how they found themselves able, enabled, validated.
'cause they formed a second, like David Brainerd, he's Exhibit A. Okay. We don't have time for. Of them, but David Brainerd ordained by the way his denomination in the East coast, but unable to get to the Indians except that he joined the Scottish Missionary Society and was supported, as I said by, by Jonathan [00:23:00] Edwards.
I do wonder if part of the changing or evolving situation we're faced in is, in David Brainerd's time, that kind of a specialized agency was absolutely necessary. I think today people jump on an airplane. They go all around the world. Tourist visit places that only missionaries ever visited 50, 67 years ago.
I think maybe there's a sense that, the church can do missions without the agency, so why wouldn't we have you? What's your response to that? The presbytery, the consistory. The ruling administrations of the Christian Reform churches, Presbyterian churches, they are completely dedicated to taking care of the ministry of the church where it exists and where local people can join those churches.
When I joined the presbytery here in the Grand Canyon presbytery, they didn't have a place for a guy that was a [00:24:00] missionary, so they gave me a name tag. I wore it. Every time we'd meet serving out of bounds, Reverend Robert, I Blincoe serving Nobody. All bad time. All bad time. Nobody else was serving out of bounds.
They were members of churches. So they had to think. So I'm not making this up and I don't really mind being that, but I'm telling you the church is bluffing. Okay? When it says now that we can send missionary, we get on airplanes and send them around the world, they are. Bluffing when they think that they're administratively built to bring about the mission of Christ.
We go back to Galatians two on this two administrative structures of the gospel. One. To administer the gospel through the presbytery or the Consistory or the legacy churches, and God bless us for that. We're all in church on Sunday mornings, but the other one is Paul and Barvas ministry to the, to go to Spain, to the ends of the earth.[00:25:00]
The Romans 15 kind of preached the gospel where Christ is not known. No church in the world is prepared to administrate that kind of. Of reality now their sentiment is there and their sense that we should be doing this. Pastor Lewis again saying, if only the church will organized. I'm trying to relieve him of his problem because he wasn't made for that.
It's, it every church is going to need, every local church is going to need to partner with. Mission agency and there is the rub, there is the reality that's been true ever since the Mission Ice Age ended and how we got to this place today of a worldwide expression of the church and how we are going to finish the task, Ted and all by going to the Unreached Peoples Church, partnering with one another in this great task.
I think we'll leave it at that. And I wanna thank you for coming on. That was inspiring [00:26:00] and encouraging and I'm sure there'll be some response on the substack. So follow along and thanks for your time, Bob. Thank you very much.
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